I feel like a Jeff Foxworthy sketch sometimes. If you see a system that’s fundamentally broken and you set out to fix it, you might be an engineer. So it was that when Daniel Jalkut started advancing the idea of developers getting together and doing this promotional bundle thing right, I grabbed the ball and ran with it. I think better with my fingers, so pardon me while I work through some thoughts.
MacHeist II has come and gone.
Having signed up for the original MacHeist — I like to know what my users are going through — I get all the email urging me to get in on the action. I actually took a look at the action, purely as a user who likes a good a deal, but all I got out of it was an urge to yawn. At the end of the day, a million dollars or not, I just didn’t find the bundle very compelling.
This is the real problem with MacHeist. I don’t buy into this idea that developers were led down some sort of garden path. The deal for developers wasn’t very good, but they, or should I say, we, knew what we were getting into. Sort of. The first time around the disparity of disbursement wasn’t clear until it was too late. This time around, eyes were definitely open, and therein lies the problem. Looking at this bundle, I really feel like the directorate — their term — had trouble getting people to sign on.
I mean, OK, nothing against the apps in this bundle. I know some of the guys who wrote them and they’re the salt of the earth. Still, I just have this nagging feeling like we’re missing out on the real Class A apps. We’ve got a lot full of Honda Civics, and there’s nothing wrong with the Honda Civic, but it’s no Toyota Mark IV Twin Turbo Supra.
At the end of the day, the way MacHeist is set up prevents the industry’s top developers from participating. I think it hurts the bundle, and I think it hurts the user. What they’re getting is great, but what they could be getting is so much better. I like sizzle, but I love steak. How can we do this thing right?
The answer is that most American of ideas — cut out the middle man. I don’t know a single Mac developer who’s in it for the money. Everyone I know does this for the love of good work and the sincere desire to make the world a better place. The good MacHeist does for charity is to their credit, and we’re all behind that, but Steve Jobs said it all: Do you want to sell sugar water to kids, or do you want to change the world.
I’m going to come right out and say it: It bothers me that there’s a group of people getting rich off MacHeist. Maybe that’s a personality defect on my part, but it sincerely bothers me. It’s not that I’m jealous, or that I begrudge someone benefiting from the sweat of a good day’s work. It’s that we’ve seen this sort of thing before.
We see it in books, we see it in music, and we definitely see it in software. Even if the workers control the means of production, they do not control the means of distribution. Middlemen are hated for a reason. They limit consumer choice, stiffle creativity, and take the lion’s share of the profits. The internet has finally given us, the worker, a chance to deal directly with the public, and it’s done amazing things for our industry.
MacHeist is a very dangerous, very scary step backwards. Once again the middle man is taking the biggest piece of the pie and flicking the worker his crumbs. I’m not saying the guys at MacHeist aren’t doing good work, nor that they don’t deserve compensation for their labors. I feel the same way about aggregators and record labels. It’s not that they don’t work, it’s that they think we work for them, and that’s backwards. They work for us.
So what are we going to do about it?
We’re going to prove it. We’re going to show our colleagues and our customers that there’s a better way. We’re going to show our colleagues that they don’t need to settle for crumbs in order to get a piece of the pie. We’re going to show our customers that they don’t need middlemen to get them a good deal. We’re going to show the world that MacHeist is not the future, but a very well polished artifact from the past.
We’ve got some of the industry’s best developers in our circle to provide applications and, perhaps more importantly, their impressive engineering talents. We’ve got an organizer with — if I can toot my own horn — a little bit of clout and experience. We’ve got a project manager with the time to do what needs to be done, my man Ash Ponders. We’ve got a great artist who’s expressed interest in helping, the lovely and talented Victoria Wang.
Most importantly, we’ve got the perfect cause. It’s one thing to give money to charity, that vague and sometimes unpalatable selflessness. It’s another thing to have a real cause, and Madagascar is the perfect cause. It really does have something for everyone. Love cute, fuzzy animals? We’ve got those. Love birds? Madagascar is lousy with endemic birds that are just as interesting and just as threatened as the lemurs.
Someone asked me, why are you concerned with lemurs when there’s real human suffering happening in Darfur? I told them, you think there isn’t real human suffering in Madagascar? Why do you think the lemurs are endangered? And how do you think we intend to save them? By helping some of the poorest people in the world help themselves. Humanitarians and curmudgeons alike can get behind that.
Maybe you love science? Or Education? Madagascar has plenty of opportunities and need for both. Maybe you’re concerned about the environment, or global warming? Halting the deforestation of, or even reforesting, Madagascar has far reaching implications on both. And, of course, Madagascar presents us with an easy mascot.
This is all well and good, but it’s a drop in the bucket compared to what Madagascar really affords us: the opportunity to affect very real, very direct change. It’s one thing to raise a bunch of money for charity, but how much of that is going into administrative expenses and other inefficiencies? The Madagascar Fauna Group is 99% efficient, so the answer is quite resounding.
Moreover, Madagascar presents the opportunity for small amounts of money, you or I money, to do real work. The country is so poor that even pocket change adds up to real spending power. I don’t want to start sounding like a Sally Struthers commercial, but it really is amazing the kind of leverage Madagascar provides.
So what’s it to you?
We’ve got some really interesting ideas that should result in something for everyone. Obviously, we can’t just throw together a bundle of every piece of software under the sun and expect that to work out, but we’ve got a way for any developer to contribute, and to benefit, even if their app isn’t right for the bundle, they’ve just started shipping and aren’t ready to take that kind of pay cut, or they make an application that costs way too much to sell at these prices. If you or your company makes Mac software and you want in on what I can already feel is going to be a historical, world-changing event, drop us a line: bundle at united lemur dot org.
If you’re in the media, if you have a blog, or if you’re friends with David Pogue, Leo Laporte, or, hell, why not, Ira Glass, drop us a line. We’d love to talk, and if the name of this blog isn’t enough indication, I’m not one to beat around the bush.
If you’re a fan of great software and great causes, start saving your pennies, because you’re not going to want to miss out on this action.
Addenda 
It’s been a busy day since I posted what I thought was a pretty diplomatic look at some of the perceptions and feelings that lead us to the concept of the Mad Bundle. Unfortuantely, those very perceptions rub at least one of the MacHeist crew the wrong way. Phill Ryu had some very strong words to say about the whole thing, and while I tried to remain calm, I’m only human and pretty well lost my shit on Twitter.
Then I realized, hell, I’m not making anything better. I don’t want the Mad Bundle to come across as some kind of attack on MacHeist, because that’s really not what it’s about. The Mad Bundle is about empowering developers and raising money and awareness for Madagascar. MacHeist is just historical context.
So, I let Phill have his piece in the only way I thought would be honest: I posted a full transcript of our conversation. Since then Phill has calmed down, and even apologized, which I think is a great reflection on his character. We’ve been able to resume the conversation, and I’m pleased to have the opportunity to present his case.
First, Phill’s a real person, with real feelings. He doesn’t like being vilified or having sinister motives ascribed to him any more than you or I do. When people suggest that MacHeist is somehow evil, that hurts his feelings. He doesn’t wake up in the morning and think, how can I be evil today. He does what he does because it’s what he does, just like any good developer.
Sometimes what he does is at odds with what I and other developers do, and that’s OK. We don’t have to agree on everything. I thought and continue to think that nobody was ripped off or mislead by the original MacHeist, and from what Phill tells me, they’ve taken solid steps to improve the situation for their developers. He couldn’t give me solid numbers because details on the developer deals are upcoming in a Gruber exclusive. I respect that, and I would sure as hell never want to cross John.
So, it sounds like industry perception of MacHeist may well be changing, and good for them. There’s always going to be a place in our industry for guys like Phill. The only thing we have to figure out is where that place is. He continues to explore that in his work, and we’ll be exploring that from the other direction in the Mad Bundle. At the end of the day, as long as it makes the world a better place, we all win.
P.S. Phill doesn’t really think DL2 sucks. He’s buying extra underpants, just like everyone else.
There were... a lot of comments:
Lemur Formerly of Seattle
Your creativity matches your writing skill again. I bailed on my Mac app after moving and getting a job, but if I had finished it, I'd submit it. Looking forward to seeing what comes out of this.
Your creativity matches your writing skill again. I bailed on my Mac app after moving and getting a job, but if I had finished it, I'd submit it. Looking forward to seeing what comes out of this.
Travis Jeffery
I definetly support everything you said and don't need to really add more other to reiterate the creators are the ones who we should value.
I definetly support everything you said and don't need to really add more other to reiterate the creators are the ones who we should value.
Mark Munz
Very well written, but I think a big point missed on the whole cheap bundle is that it devalues the individual products. If BMW sold its cars in a bundle that made them worth only $5K, that devalues the value of the car long term.
If you're $50 app is being sold in bundles that effectively bring the cost to
Very well written, but I think a big point missed on the whole cheap bundle is that it devalues the individual products. If BMW sold its cars in a bundle that made them worth only $5K, that devalues the value of the car long term.
If you're $50 app is being sold in bundles that effectively bring the cost to
Mike Lee
I hear the devaluation argument, and as one in the industry, I can certainly understand and sympathize with it. If the purpose of a bundle is just to make money, I think devaluation is a very serious issue. However, the Mad Bundle has a very good cause behind it. Taking a bit of a hit for a good cause, donating some of the value of your application, if you will, does not devalue your application. People will understand that you're not doing this for money, but to affect change in the world. If anything, that adds value, not just to your work, but to your worth as a human being.
I hear the devaluation argument, and as one in the industry, I can certainly understand and sympathize with it. If the purpose of a bundle is just to make money, I think devaluation is a very serious issue. However, the Mad Bundle has a very good cause behind it. Taking a bit of a hit for a good cause, donating some of the value of your application, if you will, does not devalue your application. People will understand that you're not doing this for money, but to affect change in the world. If anything, that adds value, not just to your work, but to your worth as a human being.
Mark Munz
So it's more like donate to a good cause, and these are some goodies provided by the folks participating in the bundle. Sort of like the SWAG you can buy from EFF or some other non-profit organization. That makes more sense and is a lot different than the MacHeist bundles.
So it's more like donate to a good cause, and these are some goodies provided by the folks participating in the bundle. Sort of like the SWAG you can buy from EFF or some other non-profit organization. That makes more sense and is a lot different than the MacHeist bundles.
Random Lemur
PR - I guess if all else fails just start swinging the insult cat around the room and see what you can hit.. Does your dictionary have a definition for maturity too?
PR - I guess if all else fails just start swinging the insult cat around the room and see what you can hit.. Does your dictionary have a definition for maturity too?
Random Lemur
PR - The personal insults are juvenile at best -- makes you seem like a total ass.
PR - The personal insults are juvenile at best -- makes you seem like a total ass.
Jack
The MacHeist guys understandably see this as a threat and I definitely think Phill could have handled this better. But I'd recommend rising above whatever sourness there is and keep the focus on charity work.
The MacHeist guys understandably see this as a threat and I definitely think Phill could have handled this better. But I'd recommend rising above whatever sourness there is and keep the focus on charity work.
David Brady
Mike, your comments are spot-on. I don't participate in MacHeist for the _exact_ reasons you specify: the premier apps just aren't there. I never saw anything (locked or unlocked) that I needed.
I'm not going to drop _any_ amount of money on what I consider marginally-useful apps. I'm not dissing them, just saying that I have no real use for any of them.
I will, however:
1) pay full price for an app that does _exactly_ what I need (eg. NNW, Acorn, AudioHijack Pro, DL2, Coda, SuperDuper, TextSoap, etc)
2) pay full price for a bundle of said apps _especially_ if it does the world some good. If I get a discount on said bundle, so much better.
Dude, it's ALL about doing good. Whether for indie devs, or for Madagascar.
The transcript is pretty revealing -- I came away with the sense that your attempts to reason with PR were failing -- and IMHO, it's b/c PR isn't willing to meet you halfway.
PR doesn't get it, and I fear won't ever get it.
Rock your own bundle, and the Mac community will rise to the occasion -- for all the right reasons.
Mike, your comments are spot-on. I don't participate in MacHeist for the _exact_ reasons you specify: the premier apps just aren't there. I never saw anything (locked or unlocked) that I needed.
I'm not going to drop _any_ amount of money on what I consider marginally-useful apps. I'm not dissing them, just saying that I have no real use for any of them.
I will, however:
1) pay full price for an app that does _exactly_ what I need (eg. NNW, Acorn, AudioHijack Pro, DL2, Coda, SuperDuper, TextSoap, etc)
2) pay full price for a bundle of said apps _especially_ if it does the world some good. If I get a discount on said bundle, so much better.
Dude, it's ALL about doing good. Whether for indie devs, or for Madagascar.
The transcript is pretty revealing -- I came away with the sense that your attempts to reason with PR were failing -- and IMHO, it's b/c PR isn't willing to meet you halfway.
PR doesn't get it, and I fear won't ever get it.
Rock your own bundle, and the Mac community will rise to the occasion -- for all the right reasons.
Phillip Ryu
"MacHeist is a very dangerous, very scary step backwards. Once again the middle man is taking the biggest piece of the pie and flicking the worker his crumbs."
At least Gruber had the courtesy to label his speculation as speculation (you are completely wrong), and keep a clearly private chat, private.
"MacHeist is a very dangerous, very scary step backwards. Once again the middle man is taking the biggest piece of the pie and flicking the worker his crumbs."
At least Gruber had the courtesy to label his speculation as speculation (you are completely wrong), and keep a clearly private chat, private.
punkassjim
Can't tell you how many exchanges I've had just like your "addendum." It's sad that not everyone can keep a calm head. Props to you for doing so. Not sure if posting the IM transcript was a good idea, but I'm glad you did.
Can't tell you how many exchanges I've had just like your "addendum." It's sad that not everyone can keep a calm head. Props to you for doing so. Not sure if posting the IM transcript was a good idea, but I'm glad you did.
August Trometer
Wow.
The initial post was inspiring, and it did a great job of 1) praising what MacHeist does and 2) urging us, as developers, to "do better."
The addition of the chat transcript completely invalidates #1. MacHeist is clearly in this for the money, and they're making those piles of cash on the backs of developers.
More power to you, Mike, and count me in on the Mad Bundle.
Wow.
The initial post was inspiring, and it did a great job of 1) praising what MacHeist does and 2) urging us, as developers, to "do better."
The addition of the chat transcript completely invalidates #1. MacHeist is clearly in this for the money, and they're making those piles of cash on the backs of developers.
More power to you, Mike, and count me in on the Mad Bundle.
Phillip Ryu
What concerns me is the propagation of false figures, and the utter lack of effort to talk to anyone involved before posting. You went to journalism school, right? Isn't writing a piece without checking the facts considered pretty scummy?
I do regret the tone of the chat from my side though. Last few days have been stressful with the sale ending in a few hours. Sorry bout that.
What concerns me is the propagation of false figures, and the utter lack of effort to talk to anyone involved before posting. You went to journalism school, right? Isn't writing a piece without checking the facts considered pretty scummy?
I do regret the tone of the chat from my side though. Last few days have been stressful with the sale ending in a few hours. Sorry bout that.
Kevin Lipe
I think I speak for a lot of people in our community when I say that, after reading this transcript, I'll do whatever it takes to make sure none of my money ends up in Phill Ryu's pocket.
If this is the way this guy handles legitimate, non-insulting criticism, then he doesn't deserve the pulpit that we, the Mac community, give him.
I think I speak for a lot of people in our community when I say that, after reading this transcript, I'll do whatever it takes to make sure none of my money ends up in Phill Ryu's pocket.
If this is the way this guy handles legitimate, non-insulting criticism, then he doesn't deserve the pulpit that we, the Mac community, give him.
Random Lemur
It's not like Phill Ryu hasn't proven time and again the correct answer to every criticism of every one of his projects is being belligerent.
On the up side of things, at least people are actually getting their license codes from MacHeist. MyDreamApp just kind of faded off into oblivion while locking the designers' ideas up with contracts.
I wonder how that 15% royalty on their submissions is working out for the entrants. Contest ended in October 2006, and entrants and potential users alike have seen zippo but excuses and delays.
It's not like Phill Ryu hasn't proven time and again the correct answer to every criticism of every one of his projects is being belligerent.
On the up side of things, at least people are actually getting their license codes from MacHeist. MyDreamApp just kind of faded off into oblivion while locking the designers' ideas up with contracts.
I wonder how that 15% royalty on their submissions is working out for the entrants. Contest ended in October 2006, and entrants and potential users alike have seen zippo but excuses and delays.
Jens Alfke
I bought this year's MacHeist bundle, because it had a couple of good apps I wanted, and several more I might find useful. I had qualms about the deal for developers, but I figured that at the very least everyone had a chance to learn about it from what happened last year, so no one was going into it without foreknowledge. And if the deal for developers is better this year, then that's awesome.
But I have to say Ryu really did himself a disservice with that little exchange. The taunts about Delicious Library are sophomoric, as is slinging around words like "slander" (PS Phill: the word you wanted was actually "libel". Look it up) without seriously meaning what you say.
If I'd read that transcript before buying the bundle, I probably would have changed my mind. Oh well.
I bought this year's MacHeist bundle, because it had a couple of good apps I wanted, and several more I might find useful. I had qualms about the deal for developers, but I figured that at the very least everyone had a chance to learn about it from what happened last year, so no one was going into it without foreknowledge. And if the deal for developers is better this year, then that's awesome.
But I have to say Ryu really did himself a disservice with that little exchange. The taunts about Delicious Library are sophomoric, as is slinging around words like "slander" (PS Phill: the word you wanted was actually "libel". Look it up) without seriously meaning what you say.
If I'd read that transcript before buying the bundle, I probably would have changed my mind. Oh well.
Jason Orban
Amazing... 14 apps which maybe 3 you are going to use regularly? Who the hell wants some crappy ass games that will maybe last you a couple hours at most in your trough of boredom! Why not just help out the developers 1 on 1, straight b2c and buy the stuff you need? Then take 30 bucks, and donate it to Save the Whales if you are feeling guilty?
Amazing... 14 apps which maybe 3 you are going to use regularly? Who the hell wants some crappy ass games that will maybe last you a couple hours at most in your trough of boredom! Why not just help out the developers 1 on 1, straight b2c and buy the stuff you need? Then take 30 bucks, and donate it to Save the Whales if you are feeling guilty?
Random Lemur
ok, i'm not sticking up for anyone here, and I agree it seemed like last year the developers got a bad rap, but:
What if Phil is paying the developers 90% and giving 8% to charity, keeping the other 2% for himself/macheist (obviously stupidly made-up numbers) - in this case, saying that the majority is going to the macheist dudes is obviously not correct.
I think this may be some of what Phil is elluding to - wait until the Gruber interview before being so harsh...
ok, i'm not sticking up for anyone here, and I agree it seemed like last year the developers got a bad rap, but:
What if Phil is paying the developers 90% and giving 8% to charity, keeping the other 2% for himself/macheist (obviously stupidly made-up numbers) - in this case, saying that the majority is going to the macheist dudes is obviously not correct.
I think this may be some of what Phil is elluding to - wait until the Gruber interview before being so harsh...
Alan
I thought your essay was excellent. No idea what Phil Ryu was going on about... your comments are fair, accurate, and not defamatory in the least (and yes, Phil, it's libel, not slander you're trying to accuse him of in a very unfortunate, passive-aggressive way).
What's really the core issue here is the old philosophical idea of Lockean Labor Theory -- people are entitled to the fruits of their labor. I don't think people outside the developer community really realize just how much work is involved in developing a real application for commercial sale, and then all the follow-through effort in terms of support.
I thought your essay was excellent. No idea what Phil Ryu was going on about... your comments are fair, accurate, and not defamatory in the least (and yes, Phil, it's libel, not slander you're trying to accuse him of in a very unfortunate, passive-aggressive way).
What's really the core issue here is the old philosophical idea of Lockean Labor Theory -- people are entitled to the fruits of their labor. I don't think people outside the developer community really realize just how much work is involved in developing a real application for commercial sale, and then all the follow-through effort in terms of support.
Dan Bruno
You know, I was THIS CLOSE to buying the MacHeist bundle again, but I think this has tilted me away from it.
You know, I was THIS CLOSE to buying the MacHeist bundle again, but I think this has tilted me away from it.
Atticusrex
I came to this site through the link provided in a MacHeist forum set-up by Phill.
I am a 'fan' of MH and a buyer of both bundles plus all the 'free' apps won when a heist is solved.
Do I use all the apps? NO. Was Bundle 1 better than Bundle 2 with even less apps in #1? YES at least for me and that is subjective.
Now about this essay you've written and the chat you have shared... Here is my take...
MacHeist is fun. It takes alot of hard work and design. It isn't simply a buy this bundle for this amount thing. It provides entertainment and a community vibe as well. You get a bunch of free apps and then a choice to buy a bundle full of great, not so great and whatever apps. I think the bundle tries to please every Mac genre user.
Now about them making serious coin... why not? Last time I checked we live in America land of free enterprise.
Devs do not have to partake, Phill and gang are not holding a gun to a poor puppy's head forcing Dev's to give them apps for paltry $'s.
There is one very important fact you didn't mention... what Mac users learn from sites like MacHeist. i.e. DEV'S and what they have to offer. Also most of the apps do not allow for upgrades those you have to buy later if you want direct from the Dev's themselves. The difference with MacHeist is instead of downloading a trial version you get a full blown app but for some an upgrade will cost which is good for the Devs in the long run.
What about other sites like MacUpdate and macZot? They also are 'Middlemen'. Middlemen make money because they can get the word out to alot of users who actually come to them to see what they have to offer... and it's very democratic.
Now take your bundle idea... it seems that a group of Devs are getting together and making a bundle available with great apps for a fantastic price and part of the proceeds will go to a fantastic cause. And it looks like you will be getting some pro-bono help to make this happen as well. Well great... but in a sense the bundle site will be a 'middleman'. Seeing how different Dev's and companies are partaking in the venture.
I for one look forward to your offer. I look at all offers that come onto my radar... That is one of the great things about being a Mac user... the MacUniverse!
On a 'real-off-target' subject I have read a few other of your posts here and wanted to comment on something... on the post about the GOP but there wasn't a way for me to leave a comment there. You wrote:
"He comes forward with a brave new idea: going around killing people is really making us unpopular, and that causes things like planes flying into buildings."
That is a false statement. The planes crashed into buildings before we were going around killing people.
I for one understood going into Afghanistan, Iraq not so much. But that's for another discussion.
Thanks and good luck with your bundle idea and saving the Lemurs.
I came to this site through the link provided in a MacHeist forum set-up by Phill.
I am a 'fan' of MH and a buyer of both bundles plus all the 'free' apps won when a heist is solved.
Do I use all the apps? NO. Was Bundle 1 better than Bundle 2 with even less apps in #1? YES at least for me and that is subjective.
Now about this essay you've written and the chat you have shared... Here is my take...
MacHeist is fun. It takes alot of hard work and design. It isn't simply a buy this bundle for this amount thing. It provides entertainment and a community vibe as well. You get a bunch of free apps and then a choice to buy a bundle full of great, not so great and whatever apps. I think the bundle tries to please every Mac genre user.
Now about them making serious coin... why not? Last time I checked we live in America land of free enterprise.
Devs do not have to partake, Phill and gang are not holding a gun to a poor puppy's head forcing Dev's to give them apps for paltry $'s.
There is one very important fact you didn't mention... what Mac users learn from sites like MacHeist. i.e. DEV'S and what they have to offer. Also most of the apps do not allow for upgrades those you have to buy later if you want direct from the Dev's themselves. The difference with MacHeist is instead of downloading a trial version you get a full blown app but for some an upgrade will cost which is good for the Devs in the long run.
What about other sites like MacUpdate and macZot? They also are 'Middlemen'. Middlemen make money because they can get the word out to alot of users who actually come to them to see what they have to offer... and it's very democratic.
Now take your bundle idea... it seems that a group of Devs are getting together and making a bundle available with great apps for a fantastic price and part of the proceeds will go to a fantastic cause. And it looks like you will be getting some pro-bono help to make this happen as well. Well great... but in a sense the bundle site will be a 'middleman'. Seeing how different Dev's and companies are partaking in the venture.
I for one look forward to your offer. I look at all offers that come onto my radar... That is one of the great things about being a Mac user... the MacUniverse!
On a 'real-off-target' subject I have read a few other of your posts here and wanted to comment on something... on the post about the GOP but there wasn't a way for me to leave a comment there. You wrote:
"He comes forward with a brave new idea: going around killing people is really making us unpopular, and that causes things like planes flying into buildings."
That is a false statement. The planes crashed into buildings before we were going around killing people.
I for one understood going into Afghanistan, Iraq not so much. But that's for another discussion.
Thanks and good luck with your bundle idea and saving the Lemurs.
Random Lemur
Phil: Since no figures are directly published, you can't really fault somebody for speculating.
But you could put it all to rest right now: how much have you personally made from MH1 and 2?
How much time have you put into MH, vs. how much time has gone into, say, Vector Designer?
I *speculate* that if all the numbers were out on the table, you'd see a very large discrepancy between the "worker" and the "salesman." But that's not even really the point of the essay here, is it?
Phil: Since no figures are directly published, you can't really fault somebody for speculating.
But you could put it all to rest right now: how much have you personally made from MH1 and 2?
How much time have you put into MH, vs. how much time has gone into, say, Vector Designer?
I *speculate* that if all the numbers were out on the table, you'd see a very large discrepancy between the "worker" and the "salesman." But that's not even really the point of the essay here, is it?
Random Lemur
PR wrote:
> What concerns me is the propagation of false figures, and the utter lack of effort to talk to anyone involved before posting.
Phill, so far everything you've said, amounts to anything more than sophistry.
Why don't you take this opportunity to provide us with the true figures? You're willing to spend time and energy complaining about the alleged "false figures," yet continue to fail to dish out the actual facts.
PR wrote:
> What concerns me is the propagation of false figures, and the utter lack of effort to talk to anyone involved before posting.
Phill, so far everything you've said, amounts to anything more than sophistry.
Why don't you take this opportunity to provide us with the true figures? You're willing to spend time and energy complaining about the alleged "false figures," yet continue to fail to dish out the actual facts.
Mike Lee
Atticusrex, I agree with much of what you say. I think MacHeist is fun and a lot of work and that middlemen are necessary. The question is who works for whom. I'm obviously biased as a content producer and as a consumer of content, but I feel like content is what matters and those who serve the content should do exactly that. My lawyer, for example, doesn't tell me what to do or control my income. My lawyer works for me.
As far as the whole 9/11, killing people, chicken, egg argument, I would argue that people killing people has been happening long before airplanes hit buildings, but we can name any side as completely at fault. What's important is that we all try to understand each other and work toward common goals and common good.
If we flipped the budgets for our military and the Peace Corps, people would be a lot less inclined to crash planes into our buildings. You can make side arguments, but you can't argue against the basic premise: people who are good to other people tend to be liked, and people who are dicks tend to be hated. That's all I'm trying to say.
Atticusrex, I agree with much of what you say. I think MacHeist is fun and a lot of work and that middlemen are necessary. The question is who works for whom. I'm obviously biased as a content producer and as a consumer of content, but I feel like content is what matters and those who serve the content should do exactly that. My lawyer, for example, doesn't tell me what to do or control my income. My lawyer works for me.
As far as the whole 9/11, killing people, chicken, egg argument, I would argue that people killing people has been happening long before airplanes hit buildings, but we can name any side as completely at fault. What's important is that we all try to understand each other and work toward common goals and common good.
If we flipped the budgets for our military and the Peace Corps, people would be a lot less inclined to crash planes into our buildings. You can make side arguments, but you can't argue against the basic premise: people who are good to other people tend to be liked, and people who are dicks tend to be hated. That's all I'm trying to say.
MH Member
I personally don't have a problem with MH is doing in regards to the bundle. It is like a company buying an add in a popular magazine for say $10,000 but the magazine only costs $10. You don't think that the magazine company made money off the ads? Of course they did. The readers get to see those ads for $10.
The developers were not forced to participate in the bundle sale. If the developer do decide to participate in the bundle they are getting paid to do so and it also is a form of advertising reaching more end users then the developer could on their own.
Yes I would love to see the break down of how much the developers each got and how much went to charity.
One problem that I have is how MH made Warbrain a mod on the forums and in my "opinion" very rude, immature, and has an ego problem. Then again I think he is only about 20 so that explains it.
Warbrain should not have been a mod what so ever I don't give
a hoot if he has been their the longest. Being on a forum the longest doesn't mean you should be a mod. Warbrain does at times has useful posts but most of the times is just out right mean for the sake of being mean. This is where MH has really screwed up the most in this whole bundle thing!!
MH Please remove Mod privileges from Warbrain!!
I personally don't have a problem with MH is doing in regards to the bundle. It is like a company buying an add in a popular magazine for say $10,000 but the magazine only costs $10. You don't think that the magazine company made money off the ads? Of course they did. The readers get to see those ads for $10.
The developers were not forced to participate in the bundle sale. If the developer do decide to participate in the bundle they are getting paid to do so and it also is a form of advertising reaching more end users then the developer could on their own.
Yes I would love to see the break down of how much the developers each got and how much went to charity.
One problem that I have is how MH made Warbrain a mod on the forums and in my "opinion" very rude, immature, and has an ego problem. Then again I think he is only about 20 so that explains it.
Warbrain should not have been a mod what so ever I don't give
a hoot if he has been their the longest. Being on a forum the longest doesn't mean you should be a mod. Warbrain does at times has useful posts but most of the times is just out right mean for the sake of being mean. This is where MH has really screwed up the most in this whole bundle thing!!
MH Please remove Mod privileges from Warbrain!!
Semi Random Lemur of the misty mountain
It's interesting to consider some of the comments made by some of the earlier purchasers of the MH bundle, stating that they were not excited about the bundle, but purchased it anyway.
There are also many recent switchers and Mac newbies, so there's a novelty effect in relation to both the apps and the heist experience. People want in, and buy the bundle.
And there's the ingenious marketing. A lot of hype, and a lot of work by MacHeisters who promote the bundle in order to get more goodies.
Little has to do with the applications themselves or their usefulness. Frequent comments mention that for the price even if you use just a few programs the bundle is worth it. So there's some filler material, although I don't think it was as bad as last year.
I would suggest that you do something like GiveGoodFoodToYourMac in terms of allowing people to chose the programs they want, and market it enough so that people are aware of the offer (i.e., put banners at VersionTracker, MacUpdate, etc.).
I've never purchased a MacHeist bundle, but I think it was a good bundle this year. It would have been better if the "referral" programs were part of the bundle. Some of the Heist programs are actually better than bundled ones (e.g., Mousepose).
I'm looking forward to this. Best of luck.
It's interesting to consider some of the comments made by some of the earlier purchasers of the MH bundle, stating that they were not excited about the bundle, but purchased it anyway.
There are also many recent switchers and Mac newbies, so there's a novelty effect in relation to both the apps and the heist experience. People want in, and buy the bundle.
And there's the ingenious marketing. A lot of hype, and a lot of work by MacHeisters who promote the bundle in order to get more goodies.
Little has to do with the applications themselves or their usefulness. Frequent comments mention that for the price even if you use just a few programs the bundle is worth it. So there's some filler material, although I don't think it was as bad as last year.
I would suggest that you do something like GiveGoodFoodToYourMac in terms of allowing people to chose the programs they want, and market it enough so that people are aware of the offer (i.e., put banners at VersionTracker, MacUpdate, etc.).
I've never purchased a MacHeist bundle, but I think it was a good bundle this year. It would have been better if the "referral" programs were part of the bundle. Some of the Heist programs are actually better than bundled ones (e.g., Mousepose).
I'm looking forward to this. Best of luck.
Atticusrex
Hey Mike... I just sent you an email. Anyhow thank you for responding to my post here. We seem to almost be on the same page re: The GOP issue... I just couldn't comment on that blog there... I would love to respond and trade thoughts on those matters... but not on this thread of course... any ideas?
Hey Mike... I just sent you an email. Anyhow thank you for responding to my post here. We seem to almost be on the same page re: The GOP issue... I just couldn't comment on that blog there... I would love to respond and trade thoughts on those matters... but not on this thread of course... any ideas?
Houdah Lemur
I read about last year's figures and didn't think the deal was all that bad for developers. I factor in the fact that many people don't actually go to use all of the apps they get from a bundle.
Expecting this year's deal to be better for developers than last years, I have contacted the MacHeist team about having HoudahSpot 2 in the bundle. Well, they flat out refused. They said they wanted well established and mature application.
So OK, to each his own opinion. I consider HoudahSpot to be a very mature application. But imagine my surprise when the actual bundle was revealed. It may be just my opinion, but I don't see the well established applications. I see many 1.0 releases. Some are very promising, but definitely 1.0. Others are just boring throw-ins.
Yeah, I feel offended. Yes, I will gladly join in on ny other bundle where the makes show some more respect to the developer. If doing so can send some money the Madagascar way, you'll see a big grin on my face!
Pierre.
I read about last year's figures and didn't think the deal was all that bad for developers. I factor in the fact that many people don't actually go to use all of the apps they get from a bundle.
Expecting this year's deal to be better for developers than last years, I have contacted the MacHeist team about having HoudahSpot 2 in the bundle. Well, they flat out refused. They said they wanted well established and mature application.
So OK, to each his own opinion. I consider HoudahSpot to be a very mature application. But imagine my surprise when the actual bundle was revealed. It may be just my opinion, but I don't see the well established applications. I see many 1.0 releases. Some are very promising, but definitely 1.0. Others are just boring throw-ins.
Yeah, I feel offended. Yes, I will gladly join in on ny other bundle where the makes show some more respect to the developer. If doing so can send some money the Madagascar way, you'll see a big grin on my face!
Pierre.
Semi Random Lemur of the misty mountain
Pierre, don't be offended. Your software and customer service are much better than some of the offerings from MH. Their loss. Hopefully more people will get to know your software.
Pierre, don't be offended. Your software and customer service are much better than some of the offerings from MH. Their loss. Hopefully more people will get to know your software.
LKM
Screw the one-off bundle. Why not create something way cooler: A kind of constant Mac software market place. Instead of having one bundle a year, have an online shop with lots of Mac apps all year long. Buy one app, pay full price+10% (which go to a charity). Buy two apps, pay full price. Buy three apps, pay full price - 5%, and so on. In other words, let people make their own bundle with the apps they actually want, and let it make them when they actually need the apps.
Screw the one-off bundle. Why not create something way cooler: A kind of constant Mac software market place. Instead of having one bundle a year, have an online shop with lots of Mac apps all year long. Buy one app, pay full price+10% (which go to a charity). Buy two apps, pay full price. Buy three apps, pay full price - 5%, and so on. In other words, let people make their own bundle with the apps they actually want, and let it make them when they actually need the apps.
Josh [MacHeister]
It sounds like the winner here is still the consumer - first MacHeist, and now the Mad Bundle. When and where do we find out more about it?
It sounds like the winner here is still the consumer - first MacHeist, and now the Mad Bundle. When and where do we find out more about it?
John Brougher
Hi Mike! I'm John Brougher, from the FreelanceSwitch.com podcast--I'm no media mogul, but I'd love to help out with this initiative. After being burned out by the shenanigans of MacHeist, I'm really inspired by your post--something like this can do some real good, both in Madagascar and to bring together our community. Please give me a shout if I can help.
Hi Mike! I'm John Brougher, from the FreelanceSwitch.com podcast--I'm no media mogul, but I'd love to help out with this initiative. After being burned out by the shenanigans of MacHeist, I'm really inspired by your post--something like this can do some real good, both in Madagascar and to bring together our community. Please give me a shout if I can help.
Mike Lee
Pierre - there seems to be a lot of frustration with MacHeist from developers who didn't "make the cut," which is understandable on both sides. Obviously MacHeist is trying to put together the most compelling bundle they can, but at the same time it's very frustrating for a developer to offer to contribute only to be rebuffed. One of the design changes we hope to implement with the Mad Bundle is a way to let anyone contribute, even if they aren't a direct participant, for whatever reason.
At the end of the day, the Mad Bundle is not something being done to spite MacHeist or their ideas. It's an attempt to take a good idea and improve it through the power of engineering.
LKM - I hear what you're saying, and I half-way agree with you. I do think there's something to be said for making charity a part of everyday business. You should read my entry on the Power of Charity to learn more about some of those ideas, many of which seem to echo where it is you're coming from.
Josh - I agree that a good bundle is a win for consumers, but that doesn't mean it's a loss for everyone else. I think any bundle, even MacHeist, can be a win for consumers, for developers, for the organizers, and, of course, for charity.
As far as more details, they will be forthcoming, definitely, but we're also not going to rush this. A lot of work goes into MacHeist, which is a big part of its success. I'd like to make sure we do this right.
John - Of course you can help. I'd love to talk to you more about the Mad Bundle, via email or iChat. I'd even be willing to record something for you if it will help your podcast. You can email me at mike at united lemur dot org, or my AIM handle is piperskygod.
Pierre - there seems to be a lot of frustration with MacHeist from developers who didn't "make the cut," which is understandable on both sides. Obviously MacHeist is trying to put together the most compelling bundle they can, but at the same time it's very frustrating for a developer to offer to contribute only to be rebuffed. One of the design changes we hope to implement with the Mad Bundle is a way to let anyone contribute, even if they aren't a direct participant, for whatever reason.
At the end of the day, the Mad Bundle is not something being done to spite MacHeist or their ideas. It's an attempt to take a good idea and improve it through the power of engineering.
LKM - I hear what you're saying, and I half-way agree with you. I do think there's something to be said for making charity a part of everyday business. You should read my entry on the Power of Charity to learn more about some of those ideas, many of which seem to echo where it is you're coming from.
Josh - I agree that a good bundle is a win for consumers, but that doesn't mean it's a loss for everyone else. I think any bundle, even MacHeist, can be a win for consumers, for developers, for the organizers, and, of course, for charity.
As far as more details, they will be forthcoming, definitely, but we're also not going to rush this. A lot of work goes into MacHeist, which is a big part of its success. I'd like to make sure we do this right.
John - Of course you can help. I'd love to talk to you more about the Mad Bundle, via email or iChat. I'd even be willing to record something for you if it will help your podcast. You can email me at mike at united lemur dot org, or my AIM handle is piperskygod.
Impatient Lemur
I know details aren't finalized yet, but what sort of time frame are you looking at? Within the month, during the winter or just sometime this year?
I know details aren't finalized yet, but what sort of time frame are you looking at? Within the month, during the winter or just sometime this year?
An amused observer.
A guy makes millions selling pixels on his website.
A few guys make thousands selling software on their website.
Simply sounds like sour grapes.
PS. I bought the bundle and got Cha-Ching! Found out about Moneywell on the MH forums, and paid full price because it's a better program for my needs.
A guy makes millions selling pixels on his website.
A few guys make thousands selling software on their website.
Simply sounds like sour grapes.
PS. I bought the bundle and got Cha-Ching! Found out about Moneywell on the MH forums, and paid full price because it's a better program for my needs.
Mike Lee
As for time frame, I'm thinking early summer, late May, early June. We shall see.
I'm not sure who makes thousands selling software, what that has to do with someone selling pixels, or why anything sounds like sour grapes to our amused observer, but just in case, I'll say this:
The Mad Bundle is simply an attempt to take something that's been popular and apply a little engineering to make it better. Just because you try to improve something, doesn't mean the original thing was bad.
Bad ideas (should) quickly die; good ideas can always stand improvement.
As for time frame, I'm thinking early summer, late May, early June. We shall see.
I'm not sure who makes thousands selling software, what that has to do with someone selling pixels, or why anything sounds like sour grapes to our amused observer, but just in case, I'll say this:
The Mad Bundle is simply an attempt to take something that's been popular and apply a little engineering to make it better. Just because you try to improve something, doesn't mean the original thing was bad.
Bad ideas (should) quickly die; good ideas can always stand improvement.
An amused observer clarifying his amusement
Mike,
Perhaps my comment was too subtle for you. Everybody wishes they were the ones who thought up "The Million Dollar Homepage"... but how it bugs me that someone would profit so richly from fleecing the advertisers willing to pay for a few pixels.
You have just complained about the thousands MacHeist made selling software, and it sounds like sour grapes because it sounds like you wish you could've made that money instead of the MH Directorate.
Your logic is amusing too. The MacHeist bundle takes the software industry "a very scary step backwards" in your opinion, yet now "MacHeist is just historical context" for your next bold marketing move.... drum roll please... another bundle. Ohh but wait, this is a developer-alliance bundle, direct to the consumer... cut out that awful middleman. That awful middleman was the one who just proved to you the bundle concept works. And forged the ground for the future. I wouldn't be calling it a step backwards myself.
And by the way, as a consumer of software products, I'm smart enough to what is good for my needs and don't need you to protect me. For goodness sakes, you sound like the Godfather of the software mob asking the Mayor to let you 'protect' the neighborhood. Sorry, another confusing, deep analogy... never mind.
Mike,
Perhaps my comment was too subtle for you. Everybody wishes they were the ones who thought up "The Million Dollar Homepage"... but how it bugs me that someone would profit so richly from fleecing the advertisers willing to pay for a few pixels.
You have just complained about the thousands MacHeist made selling software, and it sounds like sour grapes because it sounds like you wish you could've made that money instead of the MH Directorate.
Your logic is amusing too. The MacHeist bundle takes the software industry "a very scary step backwards" in your opinion, yet now "MacHeist is just historical context" for your next bold marketing move.... drum roll please... another bundle. Ohh but wait, this is a developer-alliance bundle, direct to the consumer... cut out that awful middleman. That awful middleman was the one who just proved to you the bundle concept works. And forged the ground for the future. I wouldn't be calling it a step backwards myself.
And by the way, as a consumer of software products, I'm smart enough to what is good for my needs and don't need you to protect me. For goodness sakes, you sound like the Godfather of the software mob asking the Mayor to let you 'protect' the neighborhood. Sorry, another confusing, deep analogy... never mind.
Mike Lee
Don't confuse subtly for ambiguity. I got what you were saying, but insofar as it could have been interpreted multiple ways, I didn't want to assume my interpretation was the correct one, though, it turns out it was.
You are right. There are certainly those who envy sucessful gambits like "The Million Dollar Homepage," MacHeist, the red paperclip, the iPod, you name it. However, I'm not one of those people.
Instead, I look at MacHeist and I say, how can this be improved? The first step to improving something is to look at its flaws. I consider the basic model represented by MacHeist to be one such flaw. I consider MacHeist's relationship with developers to be another.
The model of MacHeist, with the middleman in control of distribution, is bad for consumers for the exact reasons I stated in the essay. For years, anyone with a good idea for a product — be it software, music, a movie, or whatever — has had to answer the question of how to get that product to the consumer.
For years, the only answer was to submit to the middlemen who controlled the means of distribution. You need only hear one of Wil's stories of dealing with the retail channel partners to get an idea of what a problem that presents. The explosion we've seen of the Mac, to say nothing of the massive quantity of independent software offerings, is a direct result of overcoming those barriers.
For years, the only way to see a Mac, let alone buy one, was to brave the apathetic or willfully ignorant halls of CompUSA, or to submit to the local Mac specialist, which was always a crapshoot. Some people have had great experiences with their local Mac retailer, but I never have. In my experience, they've always taken full advantage of being the only game in town, to the detriment of Apple and their users.
Once Apple was able to deal with customers directly, their fortunes turned. Sure, there were other factors at play, but I don't think anyone can discount the impact the Apple Store has had on the platform. It's a similar story for independent developers, who are finally able to sell directly to consumers, thanks to the ubiquity of the internet.
The qualities brought to MacHeist by its organizers is tremendous. They've taken the tenets of the "Delicious Generation," such as hype and the use of professional artists. However, that doesn't change what they are: middlemen who install themselves as a controller between the supplier and the consumer for tremendous gain.
That doesn't make them evil, but it does make them scary. That's not to say the sight of Phill Ryu makes me quake in my boots. My criticism is not with them per se, but with what they represent. If I look at something and, through the prism of the Categorical Imperative, don't like what I see, I start looking for solutions.
That you see this as sour grapes indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of my personality, if not basic economics. If the impetus for the Mad Bundle was a wish that I could have made money instead of the MacHeist directorate, it's a terrible plan. How is installing myself as the middleman in a bundle promotion designed to attenuate the gain of middlemen good business? I don't even have an application I can put in the bundle. Even if Delicious Library 2 were part of the bundle, that's not money I'd ever see.
There's money to be made in engineering, but I've never met a good engineer who was in it for the money. No, we solve problems because that's what we do. I look at the problem of MacHeist and I see solutions, which I intend to explore with the Mad Bundle. I fully expect to see at least some of those solutions find their way into future bundles, including MacHeist III, and the world will be better for it.
Many of those improvements will be from changing the way the organizers relate to the suppliers. Since publishing this post I've received a wide range of complaints from developers. I've also received a tremendous amount of help. Developers are more than just the suppliers of a product I intend to move. They're really intelligent people, and by tapping that resource, we can do things MacHeist never could.
At the end of the day it's about making things better. I don't see any reason to resent that, but if you do then, by all means, exercise your right to opt out.
Don't confuse subtly for ambiguity. I got what you were saying, but insofar as it could have been interpreted multiple ways, I didn't want to assume my interpretation was the correct one, though, it turns out it was.
You are right. There are certainly those who envy sucessful gambits like "The Million Dollar Homepage," MacHeist, the red paperclip, the iPod, you name it. However, I'm not one of those people.
Instead, I look at MacHeist and I say, how can this be improved? The first step to improving something is to look at its flaws. I consider the basic model represented by MacHeist to be one such flaw. I consider MacHeist's relationship with developers to be another.
The model of MacHeist, with the middleman in control of distribution, is bad for consumers for the exact reasons I stated in the essay. For years, anyone with a good idea for a product — be it software, music, a movie, or whatever — has had to answer the question of how to get that product to the consumer.
For years, the only answer was to submit to the middlemen who controlled the means of distribution. You need only hear one of Wil's stories of dealing with the retail channel partners to get an idea of what a problem that presents. The explosion we've seen of the Mac, to say nothing of the massive quantity of independent software offerings, is a direct result of overcoming those barriers.
For years, the only way to see a Mac, let alone buy one, was to brave the apathetic or willfully ignorant halls of CompUSA, or to submit to the local Mac specialist, which was always a crapshoot. Some people have had great experiences with their local Mac retailer, but I never have. In my experience, they've always taken full advantage of being the only game in town, to the detriment of Apple and their users.
Once Apple was able to deal with customers directly, their fortunes turned. Sure, there were other factors at play, but I don't think anyone can discount the impact the Apple Store has had on the platform. It's a similar story for independent developers, who are finally able to sell directly to consumers, thanks to the ubiquity of the internet.
The qualities brought to MacHeist by its organizers is tremendous. They've taken the tenets of the "Delicious Generation," such as hype and the use of professional artists. However, that doesn't change what they are: middlemen who install themselves as a controller between the supplier and the consumer for tremendous gain.
That doesn't make them evil, but it does make them scary. That's not to say the sight of Phill Ryu makes me quake in my boots. My criticism is not with them per se, but with what they represent. If I look at something and, through the prism of the Categorical Imperative, don't like what I see, I start looking for solutions.
That you see this as sour grapes indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of my personality, if not basic economics. If the impetus for the Mad Bundle was a wish that I could have made money instead of the MacHeist directorate, it's a terrible plan. How is installing myself as the middleman in a bundle promotion designed to attenuate the gain of middlemen good business? I don't even have an application I can put in the bundle. Even if Delicious Library 2 were part of the bundle, that's not money I'd ever see.
There's money to be made in engineering, but I've never met a good engineer who was in it for the money. No, we solve problems because that's what we do. I look at the problem of MacHeist and I see solutions, which I intend to explore with the Mad Bundle. I fully expect to see at least some of those solutions find their way into future bundles, including MacHeist III, and the world will be better for it.
Many of those improvements will be from changing the way the organizers relate to the suppliers. Since publishing this post I've received a wide range of complaints from developers. I've also received a tremendous amount of help. Developers are more than just the suppliers of a product I intend to move. They're really intelligent people, and by tapping that resource, we can do things MacHeist never could.
At the end of the day it's about making things better. I don't see any reason to resent that, but if you do then, by all means, exercise your right to opt out.
Grumpy Lemur
I liked the vibes and good attitude I'd seen here so I came back to your site all ready to donate to your Lemur club. But this latest post has totally turned me off. The attitude is all wrong here. Your bundle sounds like an interesting idea too, but I'm not sure I want to be associated with this whole story. If I wanted to read this kind of thing, I'd go to Wil Shipley's blog. At least his is funny too.
I liked the vibes and good attitude I'd seen here so I came back to your site all ready to donate to your Lemur club. But this latest post has totally turned me off. The attitude is all wrong here. Your bundle sounds like an interesting idea too, but I'm not sure I want to be associated with this whole story. If I wanted to read this kind of thing, I'd go to Wil Shipley's blog. At least his is funny too.
Mike Lee
Don’t hate the player, hate the game.
Don’t hate the player, hate the game.
If you’re a fan of great software and great causes, start saving your pennies, because you’re not going to want to miss out on this action.
Wednesday, January 23, 2008
Mad Bundle
